Howlin' Wolf Challenge

We are considering making helmets compulsory for driver and co-driver in the 2009 series.

Please have your say in this matter by casting your vote in the poll and making any sensible comments for or against below...

this is going to be interesting

id rather be safe which after breaking my neck in 1985 i do try and keep on the safe side
but myself and Nath just tried getting in the Zook with hemets on and it was different, he managed ok as he has a shorter body than me but i got in and my head was touching the roof lining so if it was going to go ahead i would have to look at either new seats and or lowering the seating position or even doing a Abel Mod and chop the bloody roof off

ive already changed my harnesses for 2009 as i knew this was coming in so this could be more stuf to buy but how much do you put on safety.

Nobby

I think rollcages should be compulsory before you make helmets compulsory. im not keen on wearing helmets because of the weight and they make it awkward to get in and out of the motor but if we have to i will.

As discussed on the Tay, I have no problem with helmets as we use them to aid communication. If, as you suggested that it will make an argument to make harness's compulsory then I will definatley not be entering the series in 2009.

We do not need harness's in challenge events, they are too restrictive and people take them off one shoulder (or just use the lap belt), so they can move which makes them inneffective.

Alan - there are categorically NO plans to make harnesses compulsory in 2009 or beyond. We had a committee meeting yesterday and the club's chief scrutineers are more than happy with our current safety arrangements.
The move to helmets would be a voluntary undertaking by the club to further protect both driver and co-driver as we discussed.

Joe - whilst I can see a case for making cages compulsory, unfortunately so many of the current competitors vehicles would not comply with the MSA regulations. I am encouraging all people undertaking new builds to try and comply so they are prepared for whatever may come along in the future.

I find it quite strange to insist on wearing a helmet but not making a ban on inadaquate standard seatbelts, or insist on a of rollcage to be fitted to a minimum suitable standard if not full MSA, which both should remove the need for a helmet, or at least be "belt and braces".

Are we saying it's OK to roll whilst your hanging out of the window providing that your are wearing a helmet?

I would love to see a risk assessment for that one.

Is that not a great example of "shutting the gate after the horse has bolted"?

If communication is required than I cannot think of a worse situation than wearing a helmet, especially with a failed intercom system due to water or battery failure etc.

I cannot think of one other form of motorsport where a standard seatbelt can be used or where it allowed hang out of the window.

This one could be interesting, it doesn't bother me wearing a helmet or not but the other points to me should be addressed before the helmet.

How many people are going to volunteer to spending a considerable amount of money on helmets to pehaps just compete on the odd round in the series?

Here's a couple of thoughts and questions,

If for any reason at the start of a comp the co-driver doesn't turn up, which has happened above once this year, what would you imagine the chances are of finding a replacement who just happened to turn up with an in spec approved helmet to take over, hyperthetical ?

Will hemets be inspected at scrutineering, and if any damage, scratches or faults found will the scrutineers prohibit the team from entering,

Will we be expected to do deep water punches (I have experience of doing them) wearing a helmet or will there be an exclusion on safety grounds, i.e. limiting escape in water anf the possibility of trapping straps and wires etc?

Whats next?

najw wrote:Alan - there are categorically NO plans to make harnesses compulsory in 2009 or beyond. We had a committee meeting yesterday and the club's chief scrutineers are more than happy with our current safety arrangements.

but with the quote above im now a bit confused................
the scrutineers have said every event this year that the harnesses i had and a lot of the others still have will not be able to be used next year due to MSA regs, so i have changed them to 3 inch 4 point ready for next season.
so in a nutshell the scrutineers are saying that standard lap belts are ok and 2 inch 3 point harnesses are no good i know which 1 i would rather rely on if my vehicle was going over

strange very strange


Nobby

Confusing I know but IF you use a harness then from next year it must be a minimum 4 point instead of three.
That said there is no requirement to use a harness, a three point seatbelt is adequate.

i fully agree and will support the decision to make MSA aproved helmets compulsory for the sport (as previously discused)
as we all know, the sport is evolving, so to must our appreciation for it. we are now pushing the capabilities of our vehicles far beyond what many thought possible and buliding new machines for even more extreme aplications. therefore it would be fool hardy to not take YOURSELF into account when competing.
i'll ask this, what is more costly and important?
a £70quid helmet now? or the rest of your life with even less grey matter than a monkey and deep inside you know that you made the wrong decision about it.

I agree with alot of what has been said but heres my personal thoughts.

If i was to wear a helmet i would have to introduce a bulge in the roof of the vehicle to allow my head to move and not have my neck jammed in the top, wouldn't like to see the effect of a roll with the helmet touching before any slack in the seatbelt is taken up!

A roll cage of sorts should come first then four point harnesses.

The accident i saw a couple of years ago people were hurt as they were wearing inertia seatbelts and then not correctly, with proper belts on they would have probably been ok.

I think that if you don't have a roof covering then you should be made to wear helmets but don't make it compulsory please

Having watched many forms of motorsport and specifically you lot for the last few years, I do not believe anyone can argue that the series has got a lot harder in an effort to keep up with the modifications you guys have made to your trucks. The two have gone hand in hand, you want to test your limits both mentally and mechanically, however I constantly see a total lack of care for personal safety.

Most motorsport vehicles are built around the safety of the driver and ususally have absolute rules that leave nothing to be interpretted, even stating a specific type so everyone has the same, because this ensures that everything possible has been done to make the human element of the equation safe.

Personally I think all three should be compulsary. MSA spec roll cage (because they have tested the minimum limits required), Harness (answer the question yourself, which will hold you in place better when rolling down the hill at Wern Du. A 2, 3 or 4 point harness??). Lastly the Helmet (you may look a tool, but at least you will recognise yourself after a crash, rather than not knowing anything!)

Now I do not know the cost of these three pieces of kit, but I am willing to bet that you spend more on your winches in a season. For a group of people that have taken 4x4 engineering into some far flung places, you are certainly not afraid to modify your trucks. So why, if you already modify them, are comments coming about further mods needed to add safety????

You guys have taken a relatively minor, unheard of motorsport application and started to put it on the map. Without a doubt it is by far the best supported, and technically challenging national series. Why is this? Because of the work you have done especially to your vehicles allowing them to get to places not possible before. This in turn has attracted more publicity. Thus everything grows.

So please can someone who competes answer me this. If you have managed to do so much for a sport, with endeavour and engineering. Why are we even discussing safety. I thought you all would want to make the sport as safe as it can possibly be before all the other engineering starts?

The thought of 'it will never happen to me' is quite frankly stupid. So what if the safety equipment makes life a little harder, it WILL save your life and alllow you to compete for many more years to come. You should want to be competing in the safest series, rather than some no rules gung ho comp because most of you have families etc and it just takes one accident to change your life forever. It happened to me and I see it regularly in my job.

I apologise now for the mini rant, but to quibble over any safety device is just futile.

BB...

Wow, that's said it.

chris booth wrote:Wow, that's said it.

It may have said it but how many people have actually been injured in our sport. The guys who were injured a couple of years ago were not wearing inertia seat belts correctly.

I have had 2 end over end, serious rolls (as well of lots of onto the side rolls), all with an inertia seat belt. Without a roll cage, I would have been in serious trouble on both but the belt held me in my seat. I didnt have a helmet on either roll and didnt bang my head at all.

I am quite happy to wear a helmet as it was benificial in the Tay and Kirton, this has nothing to do with the safety aspect of the sport though. If we were driving at high speed, all of the above arguments would be viable but we operate a walking speed (generally speaking).

If you start pushing (not talking about AWDC) for 4 point harness's, you are going to seriously impede looking out the window, rear etc etc and introduce a negative safety feature as peeps take the shoulder straps off to see the ground. Harness's would be a major backward step in my opinion.

I think Alan's take on it is quite correct.

We are not talking about helmets as a direct consequence of the risk of rolling as our safety record has been excellent to date and we don't aim to change that.

If we did envisage a sudden change in direction making rolling more likely then yes, harnesses and cages would feature in the equation.

I feel that helmets are a useful all-round protective device that should help to minimise the risk of harm in a wide range of situations.